What would it take to build a public health knowledge system that is more pluralistic, reflexive, and oriented toward action?

The Building Better Ways of Knowing initiative was created by the Healthier Futures Lab at Washington University in St. Louis Bursky School of Public Health, in partnership with the Alliance for Health Policy and Systems Research and with support from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (RWJF). The initiative convenes researchers, practitioners, policy leaders, institutional representatives, and community partners to explore how public health knowledge is produced, assessed, shared, and put into practice in ways that are rigorous, meaningful, timely, and impactful.

During the inaugural convening of this initiative, participants explored the values and incentives that drive research priorities, the institutional forces that shape whose knowledge is considered legitimate, the types of evidence that public health has long overlooked, the potential of communities to serve as genuine contributors to knowledge creation, and the disconnect between what research generates and what practitioners and communities actually need.

This episode introduces the Building Better Ways of Knowing summer mini-series by asking some of the convening guests to reflect on the convening and the knowledge production process in public health. Throughout the summer, guests from the inaugural convening will join Salma to delve deeper into the themes explored during the convening, their areas of expertise, and the interaction of their disciplines with the field of public health.

About the guests:

Guests responding to the question "What stood out to you from these two days of discussion and exchange?” include, in order of appearance: 

• Alonzo Plough — Chief Science Officer and Vice President Research-Evaluation-Learning, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation 

• Merlin Chowkwanyun — Donald H. Gemson Associate Professor of Sociomedical Sciences, Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health 

• Rachel Sachs — Professor of Law and Co-Director of The Cordell Institute, WashU School of Law

• Whitney Robinson — Associate Professor in Obstetrics and Gynecology, Duke University School of Medicine 

• John Ioannidis — Professor of Medicine, Epidemiology and Population Health, Stanford University 

• Katherine Keyes — Professor of Epidemiology, Susan Lasker Brody Professor of Population Mental Health, and Vice Chair for Research, Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health 

Guests responding to the question “What do you think needs to happen to strengthen how we produce and use knowledge in population health?” include, in order of appearance: 

• Kumanan Rasanathan — Executive Director, Alliance for Health Policy and Systems Research at the World Health Organization

• Sara Bannoura — Co-Founder, Civic City 

• Darren Jackson — Founder, Civic City

• Paula Brakeman — Professor Emeritus of Family and Community Medicine and Founding Director of the Center for Health Equity, University of California, San Francisco 

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla

Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras and Zach Linhares

Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri

Music: Helmut Schenker / Omnia from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/music/tracks/60e14d61-23ca-4899-9c56-9a9018634986/

The views and opinions expressed by the guests in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

When and how, if ever, can public health compromise individual autonomy to prioritize the population’s health?

Professor Justin Bernstein joins Salma to discuss the different types of autonomy and liberty, from an ethical and philosophical perspective. By discussing Justin's papers on Covid-19 lockdowns, vaccine mandates, and soda taxes, they weigh when and how, if ever, individual autonomy can be restricted for the sake of the public’s health. Salma and Justin also explore the prioritization of different values, including liberty, justice, and equity, the legitimacy of different framings designing in health policies. This episode will help you question if public health and autonomy are mutually exclusive concepts or if there are instances where they can exist at the same time.

About the guest:

Justin Bernstein is Assistant Professor in the Department of Philosophy at The University of Virginia. His research focuses on bioethics and political philosophy, especially in relation to collective action and public health. He is co-author of the Public Health Ethics entry of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Notes:

Acronyms used in this podcast include:

• AI: Artificial Intelligence
• SEP: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
• SNAP = Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program

Useful resources:

• Bernstein J. The case against libertarian arguments for compulsory vaccination. J Med Ethics. 2017;43(11):792-796. doi:1136/medethics-2016-103857
• Bernstein J, Jayaram A, Hutler B. Assessing the Liberty-Based Case Against Pandemic Lockdowns. ken. 2025;35(2):163-196. doi:1353/ken.2025.a987088
• Faden R, Bernstein J, Shebaya S. Public Health Ethics. In: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. 2020. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/publichealth-ethics/

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla

Editor: Catalina Melendez Contreras

Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri

Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/

The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

Why should we all be concerned about sea-level rise and its health impacts today, despite it seeming like a problem of the future?

Dr. Kathryn Bowen and Dr. Jemilah Mahmood join Salma to discuss the recently launched Lancet Commission on Sea-Level Rise, Health, and Justice. They argue that sea-level rise is neither just a coastal nor a future problem, but a present-day public health issue — one already causing increased salinity in agriculture, inundation of homes, loss of burial grounds, and rising rates of hypertension and adverse mental health in Pacific countries and other coastal communities. They dissect the fundamental injustice at the heart of the crisis: the populations bearing its heaviest burden have contributed the least to its causes.

They discuss the three core themes guiding the commission — justice, connection, and imagination — and explore what it will take to move from evidence to action, and what success could look like by 2030.

This episode will challenge you to see sea-level rise for what it already is: a health issue, a justice crisis, and an urgent call to act.

About the guests

Dr. Kathryn Bowen is Professor and Deputy Director of Melbourne Climate Futures and Professor of Climate, Environment and Global Health at the University of Melbourne. Her research focuses on the health impacts of climate change, advising governments and multilateral agencies across the Indo-Pacific region. Dr. Jemilah Mahmood is Executive Director of the Sunway Centre for Planetary Health at Sunway University Malaysia and an Obstetrician and Gynecologist, with a career spanning clinical medicine, humanitarian response, and international health leadership. Dr. Bowen is co-chair and Dr. Mahmood is commissioner of the Lancet Commission on Sea-Level Rise, Health, and Justice.

Notes:

Acronyms used in the podcast include:

• AR7 = IPCC Seventh Assessment Report;
• ICJ = International Court of Justice;
• IPCC = Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change;
• NDCs = Nationally Determined Contributions;
• PM = Prime Minister;
• UN = United Nations;
• WHO = World Health Organization.

Useful resources:

• Figueres C, Bowen K, Cha J, et al. Life at the water’s edge: a Lancet Commission on sea-level rise, health, and justice. The Lancet. 2026;407(10537):1408-1409. doi:1016/S0140-6736(26)00257-6

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/

The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

What happens when the global health architecture built over 80 years is changed drastically in 16 months and what should replace it?

Dr. Gbenga Ogedegbe is the Dr. Adolph & Margaret Berger Professor of Medicine and Population Health and the director of the Division of Health & Behavior in the Department of Population Health at NYU Grossman School of Medicine. His research focuses on the prevention and treatment of cardiovascular diseases among minority and low-income populations in the US and sub-Saharan Africa. Dr. Benjamin Mason Meier is Professor of Global Health Policy in the Department of Public Policy and the Department of Health Policy and Management at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. His research focuses on human rights frameworks in global health law.

Gbenga and Ben join Salma, right after WashU's Building for a New Era of Global Health convening, to trace how the post-war global health system was built, what it achieved, and the tensions it carried from the start: vertical, siloed, funding; neocolonial dynamics; the securitization of health; and a deficit-focused, donor-centric approach that left recipient countries with infrastructure they didn't control. They then turn to what has changed over the past year—the simultaneous withdrawal of U.S. funding across USAID, PEPFAR, and NIH, the exit from WHO, and the decline of European contributions—and what that means for active programs on the ground, from HIV clinics in Lagos to safety-net health centers in Brooklyn.

The conversation then moves to what comes next. Gbenga makes the case for reciprocal innovation drawing on his own work adapting task-shifting strategies between Ghana, Brooklyn, and Nigeria. Ben argues for the enduring power of global normative standards and human rights frameworks to guide health policy even when funding disappears. Both push for a shift in how the field communicates and for governments in the Global South to increase domestic health financing rather than wait for donor systems to return.

This episode offers a clear-eyed history of global health as we know it, an honest account of the crisis it faces, and reason for hope about what comes next.

Useful resources:

1. WashU School of Public Health. Building for a New Era of Global Health. 2026. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mLohUgBu9U

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla

Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras

Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri

Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/

The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

How do public health institutions experiencing declining public trust go about becoming trustworthy again?

Erin O'Malley is the Executive Director of the Coalition for Trust in Health and Science, a coalition of more than 90 organizations working to enhance public trust in health and science. With nearly two decades of experience in health policy, advocacy, and cross-sectoral partnership, Erin leads an organization grappling daily with one of public health's most pressing and contemporary questions.

Erin joins Salma to discuss trends in trust in health and science in the United States—from the lasting impact of the Covid pandemic to the role of political polarization in eroding institutional trustworthiness—and what it actually takes to rebuild it. They discuss what the coalition has learned about the mechanics of trust-building across the health and science ecosystem, why community-level listening and interpersonal communication matter as much as institutional messaging, and how the language we use can impact public engagement and trustworthiness.

This episode will challenge how we talk about and classify information, explore the difference between being trusted and being trustworthy, and offer practical frameworks for how individuals, practitioners, and organizations can navigate an increasingly complex information landscape.

Useful resources:

1. Resources: Knowledge. Coalition for Trust in Health and Science. https://trustinhealthandscience.org/resources/category/knowledge/

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/

The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

By some estimates, hundreds of thousands of Americans die each year who would still be alive if the United States had the mortality rates of other wealthy countries. What makes this even more unsettling is that it wasn't always this way. In the mid-twentieth century, Americans actually lived longer than their counterparts in other rich nations. Something changed, and it's been getting worse for over four decades.

Dr. Andrew Stokes is an associate professor of global health at the Boston University School of Public Health. A demographer and sociologist by training, he founded the Uncounted Lab, a research initiative focused on mortality that official statistics miss, whether from pandemics, chronic diseases, or public health emergencies.

Dr. Stokes joins Salma to discuss what excess mortality reveals about who is dying in America and why. The conversation is anchored in the "Missing Americans" concept, which estimates how many US deaths each year would have been averted if the country simply matched the mortality rates of its peers. They trace why the US mortality disadvantage has grown steadily since the early 1980s, how the Covid-19 pandemic both exposed and deepened it, and why the burden has fallen disproportionately on Americans without a college degree, driven less by the "deaths of despair" narrative that dominates headlines and more by cardiovascular diseases. The conversation closes with GLP-1 drugs and the need to celebrate progress while still looking for structural interventions to prevent and mitigate the impact of obesity in the US.

This episode offers a new lens for analyzing preventable mortality in the United States and for thinking through what it can take to address it.

Useful resources:

• Bor J, Raquib RV, Wrigley-Field E, Woolhandler S, Himmelstein DU, Stokes AC. Excess US Deaths Before, During, and After the COVID-19 Pandemic. JAMA Health Forum. 2025;6(5):e251118. doi:10.1001/jamahealthforum.2025.1118
• Bor J, Stokes AC, Raifman J, et al. Missing Americans: Early death in the United States—1933–2021. Galea S, ed. PNAS Nexus. 2023;2(6):pgad173. doi:10.1093/pnasnexus/pgad173
• Paglino E, Wrigley-Field E, Stokes AC. Diverging Mortality Trends by Educational Attainment in the US. JAMA Health Forum. 2025;6(6):e251647. doi:10.1001/jamahealthforum.2025.1647
• Stokes AC. Public health should embrace GLP-1 drugs without abandoning obesity prevention. STAT. November 28, 2025. https://www.statnews.com/2025/11/28/weight-loss-drugs-obesity-prevention-importance/

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/

The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

This is a Purple Public Health Project episode.

Dr. Itai Bavli is a Research Associate and lecturer at the W. Maurice Young Centre for Applied Ethics at the University of British Columbia, as well as the author of the Substack When Public Health Goes Wrong. His research focuses on developing a framework for understanding public health decisions and actions that have gone wrong and caused harm, with particular attention to how these errors intersect with social inequalities, medical racism, and the ties between governments and the pharmaceutical industry.

In this Purple Public Health conversation, Dr. Bavli joins Salma to discuss public health errors, which are different from medical errors but can also result in harms to the population. By exploring a wide array of examples—including the approval of Oxycontin in the US and Canada—they discuss the difference between errors of commission and errors of omission and highlight the importance of having conversations about these errors within the field. They also discuss the importance of identifying the errors versus assigning blame, the role that polarization has played in prioritizing some errors over others, the key role that transparency about errors can have on trust, and explore when has enough time passed to determine if an error has been made.

This episode will invite you to think beyond ideological, partisan, and professional lines, to understand, identify, and confront public health errors to improve the health of all.

Useful resources:

• Bavli, Itai. When Public Health Goes Wrong. Substack, accessed March 19, 2026. https://itaibavli.substack.com/
• Bavli I. When Public Health Goes Wrong: Toward a New Concept of Public Health Error. J Law Med Ethics. 2023;51(2):385-402. doi:10.1017/jme.2023.67

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/

The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.

Why does the US spend more on healthcare than other high-income countries and still have lower life expectancy?

Dr. Jose Francisco Figueroa is an Associate Professor of Health Policy and Management at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Assistant Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School, and a practicing Internist and Associate Physician at the Brigham and Women's Hospital. His research focuses on the drivers of healthcare spending and clinical outcomes and whether reforms aimed at improving healthcare quality and costs lead to better population health outcomes.

In this episode, Dr. Figueroa walks through three of his papers to build a case that is more nuanced than it first appears. The US healthcare system, it turns out, performs reasonably well on the things it controls—screening, diagnosis, chronic disease management. The problem lies outside the system: roughly 70% of the increase in avoidable deaths in the US is driven by drug use, alcohol, suicide, homicide, and traffic accidents, which are causes that clinical care cannot fix. Meanwhile, public health policies that could address those causes—such as regulations, taxes on harmful products, firearm laws—lag well behind peer countries. Also, a major policy lever of the past two decades, value-based payment reform, hasn’t moved the needle, in part because it was designed to change what happens inside the system rather than what drives people to die prematurely outside of it.

This episode will give you insights about why improving healthcare alone will not close the gap the US is currently facing. It makes the case for stronger public health infrastructure targeting the root causes of premature death.

Useful resources:

• Figueroa JF, Duggan CE, Joynt Maddox KE. Value-Based Payment in Medicare: Progress, Challenges, and Future Directions. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law. 2025;50(6):1059-1079. doi:1215/03616878-11995200
• Papanicolas I, Niksch M, Figueroa JF. Avoidable Mortality Across US States and High-Income Countries. JAMA Intern Med. 2025;185(5):583. doi:1001/jamainternmed.2025.0155
• Papanicolas I, Sawaya T, Bleich SN, Figueroa JF. Comparing US prevention efforts to other high-income countries. The Lancet Public Health. 2025;10(11):e988-e1000. doi:1016/S2468-2667(25)00222-1

Host: Dr. Salma Abdalla Editors: Catalina Melendez Contreras Marketing: Kinkini Bhaduri Music: Eden Avery / Melting Glass from Epidemic Sound https://www.epidemicsound.com/track/2fqOXWpHab/

The views and opinions expressed by the guest in this episode do not necessarily reflect those of their institution, the funders, or the podcast team.