In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, co-hosts Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck are joined by Matthew McCarthy, former CEO of Ben & Jerry’s, to challenge one of the most deeply ingrained beliefs in business: that purpose and profit are competing priorities.

Drawing on decades of experience leading one of the world's most outspoken purpose-driven brands, Matthew McCarthy argues that many of the biggest barriers to growth, trust, and impact aren't coming from competitors, regulators, or changing consumer expectations.

They're coming from inside the organization.

From the false choice between doing well and doing good to the growing crisis of consumer trust, this conversation explores why businesses so often become the fox in their own henhouse, creating the very obstacles they're trying to overcome.

Along the way, Matthew unpacks why consumers shouldn't be blamed for problems businesses have the power to solve, why leaders spend too much time debating whether instead of focusing on how, and what it takes to build organizations capable of creating both impact and value.

• Why the "purpose vs. profit" debate may be setting businesses up to fail
• How organizations become their own biggest obstacle to growth and sustainability
• Why consumers shouldn't be blamed for problems businesses can solve
• What declining trust signals about the future of business
• How debating whether to act drains energy and momentum
• Why "scale" means something different to everyone in the room
• The relationship between purpose, profit, and long-term value creation
• Why leaders can't outsource sustainability to founders, legacy, or brand DNA

00:00 – Introduction: The fox in the henhouse

00:45 – Why the purpose vs. profit debate is broken

02:15 – How businesses become their own worst enemy

03:40 – The false choice between growth and impact

05:05 – "The fact that lots of products suck..."

06:20 – Consumer trust, accountability, and changing expectations

07:15 – Stop debating whether. Start focusing on how.

08:10 – Why everyone hears "scale" differently

09:05 – Purpose, profit, and long-term value

09:45 – Closing reflections

It Shouldn't Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers navigating the messy intersection of purpose and performance — exploring why doing the right thing in business can feel far harder than it should.

🤖 Meet Gaia, Grounded's sustainability AI:

https://grounded.world/gaia

🌍 Get Grounded:

https://grounded.world/

#Sustainability #Leadership #BenAndJerrys #Business #ItShouldntBeThisHard

In Part 2 of this conversation, co-hosts Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck continue their discussion with Jeffrey Hollender — Founder of Seventh Generation, professor at New York University Stern School of Business, social entrepreneur, and author of Built for a Better World to explore the deeper systems, incentives, and leadership challenges that make responsible business so difficult to sustain.

While Part 1 unpacked Jeffrey’s personal journey building (and eventually losing) Seventh Generation, Part 2 zooms out to examine the broader forces shaping business behavior today: political influence, broken incentives, governance structures, internal culture, and the uncomfortable reality that doing the right thing often still comes with risk.

Jeffrey reflects on the early struggles of Seventh Generation, why the company’s growth accelerated when sustainability became connected to personal health and wellness, and why movements like B Corp still haven’t reached the scale needed to transform business at large.

But perhaps most importantly, this conversation explores the human side of leadership:

Why humility matters more than ego.

Why radical transparency terrifies companies.

And why businesses can’t close the gap between intention and execution without fundamentally changing how they operate.

Built for a Better World explores Jeffrey Hollender’s journey building Seventh Generation and the lessons learned navigating the tension between purpose, profit, leadership, and systemic change. Grab your own copy here: https://jeffreyhollender.net/

Key Takeaways:

• Why business is both a driver of solutions and a major contributor to systemic problems
• The role storytelling and internal culture play in scaling impact
• How market incentives shape whether sustainable businesses succeed or fail
• Why Seventh Generation reframed sustainability around personal health and wellness
• Jeffrey Hollender’s perspective on the B Corp movement
• Why larger corporations still resist accountability and transparency frameworks
• The overlooked business case for sustainability, diversity, and stakeholder governance
• Why humility is essential for responsible leadership
• What “radical transparency” actually looks like inside organizations
• Why purpose-driven businesses struggle when systems still reward short-term profit

Timestamps:

00:00 – Introduction: the deeper systems shaping business behavior

00:45 – Why business is both the solution and part of the problem

01:30 – The role storytelling plays in purpose-driven organizations

02:15 – Why values often collapse under external market pressures

02:50 – How Seventh Generation repositioned sustainability around health and wellness

04:15 – Jeffrey Hollender’s perspective on the B Corp movement

05:10 – Why businesses still struggle to understand the business case for sustainability

06:05 – Diversity, governance, and systems thinking in leadership

06:50 – Words of wisdom for leaders trying to do the right thing

07:15 – Why humility and radical transparency matter more than ever

07:55 – Closing reflections on rebuilding business systems differently

About the Show:

It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like -real conversations, radical ideas, and the belief that purpose and profit can - (and must) coexist.

Additional Resources:

🤖 Meet Gaia, Grounded’s sustainability AI:

https://grounded.world/gaia

🌍 Get Grounded:

https://grounded.world/

#Sustainability #Business #Leadership #ESG #Bcorp #SocialEntrepreneurship #ItShouldntBeThisHard

What happens when the company you built to change the world starts drifting away from the very values it was founded on?

In Part 1 of this conversation, co-hosts Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck are joined by Jeffrey Hollender — co-founder of Seventh Generation, professor at New York University Stern School of Business, social entrepreneur, and author of Built for a Better World — to unpack the uncomfortable realities behind building a purpose-driven business inside systems that are designed to reward the opposite.

Jeffrey reflects candidly on the rise of Seventh Generation, the mistakes he made while scaling the business, and the painful realization that purpose alone isn’t enough to protect a mission.

But this episode goes beyond one company’s story.

It explores the deeper structural tension sitting at the heart of responsible business today:

Why do so many businesses want to do the right thing… yet still struggle to do the right things?

From investor misalignment and growth addiction to systems thinking, leadership consciousness, and the growing fear around speaking publicly about sustainability, this conversation unpacks why purpose-driven business can feel so difficult — even for the pioneers who helped define it.

Key Takeaways:

- What Jeffrey Hollender learned after being fired from Seventh Generation

- Why mission-driven businesses often break when values collide with growth pressure

- How investor misalignment can slowly erode a company’s purpose

Why “doing the right thing” doesn’t always translate into “doing the right things”

- The role systems thinking plays in sustainability leadership

-Why businesses need cultures built around consciousness, not just compliance

- How political and cultural pressure is fueling sustainability silence and green-hushing

- Why community is essential for sustaining purpose-driven leadership

Timestamps:

00:00 – Introduction: building purpose-driven brands inside broken systems

01:00 – Jeffrey Hollender’s journey as a lifelong social entrepreneur

02:32 – The painful reality of getting fired from the company you built

05:10 – Being “ahead” without bringing people along

07:37– Why hiring and cultural alignment matter more than strategy

10:05 – Why business systems often reward unethical behavior

12:45 – Sustainability as an endless hurdle race

14:28 – Why business isn't stepping up

16:40 – The gap between doing the right thing vs. the right things

17:14 – Why not all sustainability actions are created equal

About the Show:

It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers navigating the messy intersection of purpose and performance — exploring why doing the right thing in business can feel far harder than it should.

Additional Resources:

🤖 Meet Gaia, Grounded’s sustainability AI:

https://grounded.world/gaia

🌍 Get Grounded:

https://grounded.world/

#Sustainability #Business #ClimateLeadership #ESG #SocialEntrepreneurship #JeffreyHollender #SeventhGeneration #ItShouldntBeThisHard