Raz and Jamie sat down for an honest conversation about the painful reality of unhealthy church leadership—and the deeper heart issues that often fuel it. We discussed how easy it can be for leaders to build identity around ministry success, control, growth, productivity, or the opinions of people, rather than resting securely in who they already are in Christ. When leaders are not rooted in Jesus, ministry can slowly shift from serving people to managing systems, protecting platforms, or chasing outcomes.

We also explored the Kingdom way of leadership that Jesus models: dying to self, abiding in Him, and leading from a place of surrender rather than striving. Healthy Kingdom leadership is not ultimately about building bigger organizations, but about loving and serving people well. Jesus consistently measured leadership differently than the world does—not by power, status, or numbers, but through humility, servanthood, faithfulness, and love. We talked about how true productivity flows from abiding in Christ and focusing on what He is focused on: people, presence, and obedience to the Father.

If you are a leader, serve in ministry, or have been hurt by unhealthy leadership dynamics, we hope this conversation encourages you to slow down, reconnect with Jesus, and rediscover the freedom of leading with Him instead of carrying the weight alone.

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Resources & Contact Info

Email Raz & Jamie:
razwithhim@gmail.com

Their church: Mariemont Church (Cincinnati, OH)
Mariemont Church

Jamie’s website & writing:
Jamie Moore Website

Jamie’s book, Friendship with God
Friendship with God on Amazon