David Mickelson and Kori Andrews welcome back Jordan Robertson for her third clinical installment. Jordan defines secondary loss as the "ripple effect" of subsequent losses stemming from a death, such as changes in identity, routine, and financial security. Unlike the immediate impact of a primary loss, these cascading changes often catch the bereaved off guard years later.

Kori shares a poignant account of navigating his daughters' health crises while still processing the earlier loss of his daughter, Kamryn. Jordan categorizes these challenges into areas like loss of function—where daily tasks become overwhelming—and the heavy loss of hopes and dreams, such as missing a child’s future milestones, missions, or weddings.

The episode provides strategies for navigating these "intangible" losses, including naming them and finding anchor relationships. Ultimately, the hosts highlight secondary loss as a new avenue to rely on Jesus Christ. Kori shares how a sacred song brought him comfort, testifying that the Savior provides relief and hope throughout the long, rhythmic journey of grief.

Disclaimer:
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health care. Although a therapist in training is featured, no therapy or counseling services are being provided, and no therapist-client relationship is formed. If you need support, please contact a qualified mental health professional or, in a crisis, reach out to local emergency services or the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.

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David Mickelson and Kori Andrews welcome Tiffany Thurgood, who shares the story of her husband Danny’s battle with an incurable kidney tumor. Tiffany, a self-described extrovert who loves to dance, recounts their "Hallmark" long-distance meeting and the sudden diagnosis that transformed their lives. Despite the "terror" of his final weeks, Tiffany shares a sacred conversation where she learned that her need for the Savior surpassed even her need for her husband.
The discussion explores the difference between the faith to be healed and the "forest of mustard trees" required to endure lifelong loss. Tiffany candidly describes the difficulty of parenting through bereavement and the importance of being "patient in long-suffering". She highlights the power of vulnerability through a tearful encounter at a sporting goods store, where a stranger’s offer of prayer provided an unexpected spiritual connection.
Currently, Tiffany finds purpose in pursuing a degree in family history work, a path she feels was divinely prepared for her. She testifies that while some mountains do not move, Jesus Christ provides the strength to climb them and see a "different view". Her story serves as a witness that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, peace is possible even when life does not turn out as planned.Follow along on social media:

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David Mickelson and Kori Andrews welcome George Slaughter, who shares the story of his daughter, Madey. A vibrant athlete and music lover, Madey was diagnosed with Ewing sarcoma at age 14. Despite a year of intense treatments and a hopeful community rallying behind her with "Slaughter Cancer" wristbands, Madey passed away shortly after her 15th birthday.

George candidly discusses the struggle of not receiving the physical miracle the family sought. He introduces their powerful "hold on" phrase: “It might not be okay right now, but it will be”. George reflects on the "extra portion of the spirit" that sustained them, emphasizing that while grief remains real, faith provides the strength to keep moving even when answers feel elusive.

Ultimately, George testifies that Jesus Christ is hope. He shares how turning outward and expressing honest feelings—including frustration—allows for joy amidst sorrow. Looking forward to a future reunion, he finds peace in the promise of the resurrection, trusting that the Savior's love is sufficient to carry us through every mountain.

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David and Kori welcome Anairon Faust, who shares the story of losing his father, Damon, in a 2009 car accident. Years earlier, Anairon felt a spiritual prompting that he would one day need to step in as the "birthright son" to help care for his nine siblings. This preparation became a reality when a tragic accident in Nevada left his mother in a coma and his father deceased.

Anairon describes the "divine design" of God’s comfort, including a miraculous hospital encounter with a stranger who had faced the exact same trial. He reflects on the "Savior knocking on his door" through community members who provided months of essential food and service. These experiences taught him that while grief involves mourning lost future milestones, God actively prepares us for the "when," not just the "if," of life's trials.

Finally, the discussion explores how healing requires "time and the Atonement of Jesus Christ". Anairon testifies that facing pain head-on allows the Savior to tend to our wounds, creating a sacred connection with the Lord. He emphasizes that no loss is outside of Christ’s power to compensate, turning bitter sorrow into an enduring hope for future reunions.

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David and Kori welcome Amanda Wilkinson, who shares the heart-wrenching yet inspiring story of her daughter, Gracelyn. At 14, Grace was severely injured by live wires in a classroom, leading to six years of progressive, terminal illness. Amanda also reflects on the earlier loss of her toddler son, Bennett, discussing how these distinct grief journeys have "excavated" her soul and expanded her capacity for empathy.
The conversation focuses on Amanda’s multimedia book, Walking with Grace. Through journal entries and QR codes linking to Grace’s original music and art, listeners encounter a young woman who chose to turn outward in service despite intense physical pain. Amanda emphasizes that Grace’s identity was defined by her unconquerable spirit and creativity, rather than just the tragedy she endured.
Finally, Amanda explores shifting from a "transactional faith" to a relationship-based hope in Jesus Christ. She describes the "wrestle" with God as an act of love and introduces the concept of a "daily resurrection". Through the Savior's atonement, she finds the power to live meaningfully in the "mess," testifying that the Savior provides a healing light that never truly ends.

Resources:

⁠⁠⁠Walking with Grace (Amazon)

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David Mickelson and Kori Andrews welcome Jordan Robertson for the second installment of her clinical series. Jordan, a PhD candidate, provides a roadmap for those considering professional help during their grief journey. Drawing from her own experience following her husband’s terminal diagnosis, she demystifies what to expect during a first session, including the initial intake process and goal-setting.
The discussion highlights key differences between professional counseling and talking to friends, emphasizing the value of a neutral, non-reciprocal space for emotional release. Jordan and the hosts also explore how clinical therapy complements ecclesiastical support. While church leaders focus on the spiritual dimension and community resources, therapists address skewed thinking patterns and provide specific tools to reduce distress and improve daily functioning.
Finally, the episode offers practical advice on finding and paying for a therapist. Jordan suggests resources like PsychologyToday.com, while explaining various certifications and payment options such as insurance or sliding scales. The hosts conclude that while healing is possible alone, professional counseling can expedite the process, helping individuals move toward "graduation" and a return to living life fully.
Disclaimer:
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health care. Although a therapist in training is featured, no therapy or counseling services are being provided, and no therapist-client relationship is formed. If you need support, please contact a qualified mental health professional or, in a crisis, reach out to local emergency services or the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.

David and Kori interview Felipe Pasini, who shares the story of losing his father, Marcelo, to cancer when Felipe was 21. Having drifted from his faith at the time, the sudden loss of both his grandfather and father forced Felipe into a period of deep sorrow and spiritual questioning.
Felipe discusses his initial struggle with the lack of a physical miracle and his frustration with God. However, through his mother’s inspired challenge to serve others, he discovered that service is a catalyst for healing. By "feeding the sheep" of his own siblings and finding personal "places of refuge," he rebuilt his relationship with the Savior and decided to serve a mission.
Finally, Felipe highlights the "small miracles" that confirmed God’s awareness, such as serving under a mission president who was his father’s former companion. As the author of About Us: From Grief to Grace, Felipe testifies that through Jesus Christ, sorrow is turned into joy and we are transformed into new creatures.

Resources:

⁠About Us: From Grief to Grace (BYU Bookstore and Amazon)

Ephraim Hanks the Musical (YouTube and Spotify)

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Elizabeth Smith shares the story of her husband, Jonny, a Southern California surfer and patent attorney who was serving as a Bishop when he passed away suddenly at age 39. Jonny’s death from cardiac arrest left Elizabeth and their three young children to navigate an unexpected and devastating journey through loss. Throughout the interview, Elizabeth emphasizes her core belief that “grief needs to be witnessed,” describing the profound healing that comes when others sit with us in our sorrow.

Elizabeth recounts the spiritual experience of hearing the prompting, “Do you have the faith for him not to be healed?” while paramedics worked to save her husband. This moment led to a transformative realization that while she did not receive the physical miracle she sought, Jesus Christ is the miracle. This perspective allows her to hold the duality of deep mortal agony alongside spiritual peace, trusting in the Savior’s infinite capacity to carry her.

Finally, Elizabeth discusses the challenge of parenting through bereavement and the importance of allowing the Savior to mend a shattered life. She shares a moving visualization of placing "broken pieces" into a container for Christ to hold, trusting His power to heal her children. Her testimony highlights how temple covenants and the Savior's empathy provide an enabling power that sustains her through the long "winter" of grief.

Resources: https://rememberingjonathansmith.com/

Accepting the Lord's Will and Timing by Elder Bednar

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